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Teach me how to ride in snow

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Teach me how to ride in snow

Old 02-23-15, 06:58 PM
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PS to noglider re your signature line: “I have made this longer than usual because I have not had time to make it shorter.” --Blaise Pascal

That’s a favorite quote of mine, that I have heard also ascribed to Mark Twain. The version I am familiar with though is, “If I had more time, I would have written a shorter note” (sounds more like Mark Twain).
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Old 02-23-15, 07:08 PM
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That's a cool chart. One time I really messed up and wore a sweater under my then new windproof cycling jacket. I was par boiled! Literally soaked through with sweat and steaming off the top of my head when I took off my helmet.

The main thing- as the jacket works so well with little under it- is adjusting hand, head, and foot protection for various temps. It was/ is a learning experience- but with practice have gotten fairly good at it.

This morning it was 6 degrees. Thermal underwear and tights for legs/ summer jersey, thermal underwear "top", and jacket for upper body/ two pairs socks (one wool, plastic bread bags, one cotton) for feet/ downy mittens for hands/ and balaclava, knit beanie for head. Worked great. On the way home it was 20 degrees so was able to shed a few items.

A balancing act, and somewhat of a PITA, but hey, worth it!
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Old 02-23-15, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Motolegs
…The main thing in a- as the jacket works so well with little under it- is adjusting hand, head, and foot protection for various temps. It was/ is a learning experience- but with practice have gotten fairly good at it.

This morning it was 6 degrees. Thermal underwear and tights for legs/ summer jersey, thermal underwear "top", and jacket for upper body/ two pairs socks (one wool, plastic bread bags, one cotton) for feet/ downy mittens for hands/ and balaclava, knit beanie for head. Worked great. On the way home it was 20 degrees so was able to shed a few items.

A balancing act, and somewhat of a PITA, but hey, worth it!
That outfit sounds a little lightweight for me, more for the mid teens - 20’s or so. One request I make of discussions of winter riding is not only how cold, but also how far? Distance (time) and temperature as a combined index of “cold.”

One subscriber suggested a cold ride is one in which the water bottle freezes solid. For me, my liter bottle of carbonated water is usually solid after about 14 miles (1 to 1.5 hours) at 15° F. On my 3° 14 mile ride this Saturday, I noted it frozen solid at about 10 miles as pictured below.
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Old 02-23-15, 08:46 PM
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@Jim from Boston, I looked it up, and it's been attributed to many people, and the earliest one was Pascal, so I went with that.

I'm chickening out about tomorrow. I was just outside walking. I'm not ready for rising 75 minutes in this. It's 11°F with wind chill of -5°F. Maybe it's less because I'm near the river. Another day I'll do it.
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Old 02-23-15, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Oldan Slo
Different tires will make a difference.

If you're slipping on ice, get studded tires.

If you're slipping on packed snow, get knobby tires like cyclocross or MTB tires.

Also lower the pressure for a bigger contact patch.

Works for me.
All the right tips.
I love winter rides, but commuting may be a different story lol
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Old 02-24-15, 06:08 AM
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I see the points about distance. My commute is about 1/4 of the duration of Noglider's. The suffering cold doesn't have as much chance to start settling in.
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Old 02-24-15, 08:03 AM
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for Jim, outstanding! kinda like SCUBA diving above the surface. also what a perfect way of showing us what it takes to get the job done

but one of my 1st reactions is to the # of layers. I'm thinking one could use fewer layers but use different layers. for example on the feet I would use a sock liner, chemical toe warmers and a thick winter sock then a covered hiking shoe. it looks like you're using 3 sock layers and a plastic bag inside the boot. also why would you cover a waterproof boot?

for the legs I would use cycle shorts, full leg tights and snow pants. a little warmer and it would be cycle shorts, novara headwind cycle pants and then rain pants. I can't imagine 4 leg layers would be comfortable

for your top the # of layers could be the same as me but I would have a long sleeve thermal base, fleece shirt and cycling rain jacket (not sure what would be the additional layer, maybe another thin fleece full zip top). Really curious of what looks like a simple cotton hospital scrub. I don't see that as a practical item.

for the head I would use a full face balaclava, helmet and cheap clear motel style shower cap over the helmet (or helmet cover), safety glasses & maybe a head sweat under the balaclava but probably not

I realize I haven't been cycle commuting this winter, like you, (I only did so one winter, coldest ride was 17 degrees that I can remember) so I defer to your better judgement and I only pose the layer remarks out of desire to continue the conversation. I have been spending hours outside this winter shoveling, roof raking & snowshoeing, etc

nothing but admiration Jim! where do you hang your stuff to dry during the day? and how long (in time) is your ride in?

was in Burlignton VT last Friday morning for a college tour. the reported windchill was 30 below zero and I believe it. I forget what the air temp was. I saw these 2 guys on bikes. one was riding in traffic and the other was parking his bike at the bldg we were going in. no idea how long he had been out or how long that 1st guy was riding. note the feet on the 2nd guy! what?
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Old 02-24-15, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Motolegs
I see the points about distance. My commute is about 1/4 of the duration of Noglider's. The suffering cold doesn't have as much chance to start settling in.
This morning, it wasn't terribly windy, and if I had cycled to work, it might not have been as bad as some days have been, even though the temperature was lower. But I decided not to risk it. As you understand, being on a bike for 70 to 90 minutes gives me a chance to build up some real pain. Tomorrow, it gets milder, and as I've learned how to deal with my extremities better, I should do OK.

I might get off the bike path at 181st St and finish the ride on the streets, since the path is still so full of snow. The streets present their own challenges, though. Traffic is a bit heavy. It's also a little hillier, though not much.
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Old 02-24-15, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
This morning, it wasn't terribly windy, and if I had cycled to work, it might not have been as bad as some days have been, even though the temperature was lower. But I decided not to risk it. As you understand, being on a bike for 70 to 90 minutes gives me a chance to build up some real pain. Tomorrow, it gets milder, and as I've learned how to deal with my extremities better, I should do OK.

I might get off the bike path at 181st St and finish the ride on the streets, since the path is still so full of snow. The streets present their own challenges, though. Traffic is a bit heavy. It's also a little hillier, though not much.
The one thing missing from your commute?

Summer.
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Old 02-24-15, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Motolegs
The one thing missing from your commute?

Summer.
Damn straight!
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Old 02-25-15, 01:33 PM
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It was about 23ºF when I headed out today, and I was more than adequately bundled up. I didn't get cold.

The stretch that was snowy is now almost entirely iced up, and it was super treacherous. I did put my weight back as much as possible, and that helped a little, but when my front wheel turns left and right on the ice, there isn't much I can do. I had to walk for many stretches, and even that was hard.

Here is a view of the Hudson, with lots of ice on it. Yesterday, the East River was so icy that they had to suspend ferry service!



Can you see how icy the path is and how faceted the ice is? Footprints and tire tracks froze, making it pretty awful.



I tried to ride on the dirty snow bank here. The path is to the left. This is not dirt, here on the right. It is very dirty snow. It was not packed down enough to make passage possible, but it was worth a try. For a stretch, I walked here since walking on the ice was so bad.



Now, it's pretty weird to find things like pants on the ground, but this is doubly weird: two pairs of pants! What the?!

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Old 02-25-15, 01:34 PM
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The weather will probably warm up, and once this ice is gone, I don't expect it to occur again this year, so I won't be building an ice bike this winter, but I might do it next winter. Knobby tires are good for snow, but for ice, I'll need carbide studs.
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Old 02-25-15, 01:46 PM
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oh man that's brutal. it must have taken 2 hours to get in? great pics! love to see the river!
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Old 02-26-15, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
…Can you see how icy the path is and how faceted the ice is? Footprints and tire tracks froze, making it pretty awful….
Yeah, studs will help you on the ice and bumps made by the footprints. Get as wide tires if possible and use lower than normal tire pressure. You might still fishtail and it won’t feel comfortable but keep a slow and steady pace on low gear. Resist the instinct to stop pedaling as you feel you are losing control. Just keep pedaling and you won’t fall over. And don’t close your mouth.
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Old 02-27-15, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
Yeah, studs will help you on the ice and bumps made by the footprints. Get as wide tires if possible and use lower than normal tire pressure. You might still fishtail and it won’t feel comfortable but keep a slow and steady pace on low gear. Resist the instinct to stop pedaling as you feel you are losing control. Just keep pedaling and you won’t fall over. And don’t close your mouth.
Thanks. I'm figuring this stuff out. When my front wheel fishheads (the opposite of fishtailing?), then I figure I'm likely to go down very soon. This "fishheading" happened a few times, so I stopped quickly. Having a more upright bike ought to help. Will wider handlebars help, too?
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Old 02-27-15, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
…how low can I go as the temperatures drop? This winter for example, I went out at 17° F for my 14 mile commute back in January with some trepidation. A couple weeks later I similarly went out at 12°, and this past weekend it was 3°, and 1° at my destination. I hadn’t ridden at less than 5° for about the past 10 years…

One way to bolster my confidence, and keep the decisions simple is to keep a chart of what to wear for various temperature levels. Last Saturday, I displayed all my layers for that 3° 14 mile ride [followed by Monday at 1°.]

Originally Posted by rumrunn6
for Jim, outstanding! kinda like SCUBA diving above the surface. also what a perfect way of showing us what it takes to get the job done…I realize I haven't been cycle commuting this winter, like you, (I only did so one winter, coldest ride was 17 degrees that I can remember) so I defer to your better judgement and I only pose the layer remarks out of desire to continue the conversation…
Thanks for your comments, rummrunn. I have previously posted two summaries of my cycling dress, especially for cold weather: my chart by temperature intervals, and some explantory notes about my own adaptations. FYA, here are my replies, “to continue the conversation”:



Originally Posted by rumrunn6
but one of my 1st reactions is to the # of layers. I'm thinking one could use fewer layers but use different layers. for example on the feet I would use a sock liner, chemical toe warmers and a thick winter sock then a covered hiking shoe. it looks like you're using 3 sock layers and a plastic bag inside the boot. also why would you cover a waterproof boot?
Three socks, light-. medium-, and heavyweight. The plastic bag and the green Goretex gaiters are for windscreen. At about mile 12 of my 14 mile commute is a downhill run of about a quarter mile, that seems to irretrievably drain heat from my feet. I never got into chemical warmers.



Originally Posted by rumrunn6
for the legs I would use cycle shorts, full leg tights and snow pants. a little warmer and it would be cycle shorts, novara headwind cycle pants and then rain pants. I can't imagine 4 leg layers would be comfortable
The black pants on the left are plastic rainpants, on the outside, again for windscreen. The inner tights are fairly heavyweight woolen, the outer pair heavyweight synthetics, and the shorts over those. The rainpants are less pliable and do restrict motion a bit, but I’m going pretty slow anyways, and comfort is more a concern. They are most constricting when bringing my leg over the saddle, because I have a previously fractured sacrum.



Originally Posted by rumrunn6
for your top the # of layers could be the same as me but I would have a long sleeve thermal base, fleece shirt and cycling rain jacket (not sure what would be the additional layer, maybe another thin fleece full zip top). Really curious of what looks like a simple cotton hospital scrub. I don't see that as a practical item.
I happen to have access to scrub shirts and since I ride so much including to work, I can readily exchange for clean ones, all year round. Maybe not the best material, but comfortable with convenient pockets. (Though with excessive sweat, even in the winter, the material is a bit rough, and I can suffer from so-called “Jogger’s nipples,” easily prevented with tape or band-aids, or a soft undershirt.

Note also the white athletic socks cut to make wrist gaiters to seal the gap between jacket sleeves and gloves. Furthermore I think they also serve to warm the blood flow to and from my hands, since my forearms actually perspire beneath them.



Originally Posted by rumrunn6
for the head I would use a full face balaclava, helmet and cheap clear motel style shower cap over the helmet (or helmet cover), safety glasses & maybe a head sweat under the balaclava but probably not
Helmet, woolen cap, face mask held in place with thin nylon balaclava, and neck gaiter. Since I wear prescription eyeglasses and overlying goggles, I have literally solved the fogging problem by suspending the wide-open safety goggles as a wind screen from the blue surgical scrub cap by a Velcro strip attached to the nosepiece of the goggles. The rigid goggle earpieces also provide a support for my two rearview mirrors.

Originally Posted by rumrunn6
… where do you hang your stuff to dry during the day? and how long (in time) is your ride in?
Ride is 14 miles in the outbound, reverse commuter direction, and can take up to two hours in the current weather conditions, particularly as I get off the narrowed roads to make way for upcoming cars (about 1’ to 1’15” in the summer). I have indoor space to store my bike, and hang my clothes near a radiator, even access to a table fan.

Originally Posted by rumrunn6
was in Burlignton VT last Friday morning for a college tour. the reported windchill was 30 below zero and I believe it. I forget what the air temp was. I saw these 2 guys on bikes. one was riding in traffic and the other was parking his bike at the bldg we were going in. no idea how long he had been out or how long that 1st guy was riding. note the feet on the 2nd guy! what?
I admit that single digit riding may not be impressive to our friends in Northern New England, the upper Midwest and Great Plains,etc, but I always make this inquiry:

Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
… One request I make of discussions of winter riding is not only how cold, but also how far? Distance (time) and temperature as a combined index of “cold.”

One subscriber suggested a cold ride is one in which the water bottle freezes solid. For me, my liter bottle of carbonated water is usually solid after about 14 miles (1 to 1.5 hours) at 15° F. On my 3° 14 mile ride this Saturday, I noted it frozen solid at about 10 miles as pictured below.

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Old 02-27-15, 12:51 PM
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bravo maestro, can you hear my slow clap?

and the wrist gaiters? nice touch! (reminds me of what I do to our car wiper blades w bread bags instead of putting them up I keep them down and wrap them. but the bags aren't always long enough so I have to cut the bottom of another bag and slide it over to cover the remaining part of the blades)

did I miss something about mouth open or closed? I tend to keep mine shut when there's danger of falling cuz when I was a kid one of my friends bit his tongue while sledding/crashing. I'll never forget the blood in the snow.
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Old 02-27-15, 01:34 PM
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I think back to the beginning of this winter and asking myself if I wanted to use winter tires. I figured they would be overkill because we have enough days above freezing that we won't have much of the ground covered in frozen stuff for long. Boy, was I wrong. Not only do I appreciate these knobby tires, but given that next winter may be like this one, studded tires will come in handy. My situation is a little unusual for NYC, because my bike commute is longer than normal and because I take the Hudson River Greenway all the way to the northern end, which is so badly neglected. I was right that the street surfaces aren't so threatening, but I'd rather ride the bike path, and it's pretty useless to me now. Wednesday, I rode home taking the streets most of the way to avoid the icy parts of the bike path, and it's not a very pleasant route. Braving aggressive NYC traffic is invigorating but only for a few miles. After a while, it gets pretty tiring.

I really appreciate everyone weighing in, especially @cyccommute, @rumrunn6, and @Jim from Boston.
Originally Posted by rumrunn6
oh man that's brutal. it must have taken 2 hours to get in? great pics! love to see the river!
It was brutal. It took 90 minutes, which means the ice added 20 minutes. On dry pavement, when I looked down at my speed, I think it was around 13 or 14 mph.

Here is the record of my ride. You can see at the 50-minute mark, I was going nearly 0 mph a lot.

Now, here is a puzzle. In that very icy section, a guy came along in the opposite direction. Jogging. On the ice. Do you suppose he is super skilled, or might he have had studs on his sneakers? He seemed to be having no trouble, and his pace seemed only slightly slower than moderate. Not that I'm a good gauge of jogging speed.
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Old 02-27-15, 02:25 PM
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cool garmin info page. how did your toes hold up? that's my achilles heel
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Old 02-27-15, 02:43 PM
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@rumrunn6, I found that my boot-ish shoes do just fine. I got them extra large, and even with two pairs of socks and extra insoles, I still have extra room in them. Perhaps the rubber toe tip helps keep the wind off. I didn't try riding with these until recently. I was using cycling shoes and had covered the fronts with duct tape. The duct tape didn't help, or it didn't help enough. These shoes are good. I sacrifice the cleats, but it's not a big sacrifice for me. My pedals are SPD on one side and so-called platform on the other side.

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Old 02-27-15, 04:17 PM
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I dug around and fought with the city's web page and figured out how to report the problem with ice on the path. Maybe in a month, after it's all melted, they'll get around to reading my report.
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Old 02-27-15, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
…. When my front wheel fishheads (the opposite of fishtailing?), then I figure I'm likely to go down very soon. This "fishheading" happened a few times, so I stopped quickly. Having a more upright bike ought to help. Will wider handlebars help, too?
In other threads other people mention that if your front wheels don’t have traction, you’ll wipe out. And the way to mitigate that is to lower the pressure of your front tires even further so more surface area of the front treads will grip the ice and snow. Some stress if it's only one wheel that will have the studs, put them on the front.

If traction isn’t the case, I think you mean all the bumps on the ice and snow is guiding your front wheel all over the place. Happens to me too and it’s impossible to ride in a straight line especially when you’re in a six to foot wide trench of snow carved out by pedestrians. So same deal – just keep pedalling and your rear wheel will keep you going - angular momentum will help you stay upright. If you stop, you'll fall.

Originally Posted by noglider
I think back to the beginning of this winter and asking myself if I wanted to use winter tires. I figured they would be overkill because we have enough days above freezing that we won't have much of the ground covered in frozen stuff for long. Boy, was I wrong. Not only do I appreciate these knobby tires, but given that next winter may be like this one, studded tires will come in handy….
A funny thing may happen. When spring comes, we’ll all be glad that we can ride normally again but with all that knowledge and experience learned the winter just past, some of us may even be looking forward to the next one to see how much more improved we are.
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Old 02-27-15, 07:23 PM
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Very helpful, @Daniel4!
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Old 02-27-15, 07:37 PM
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I only have experience with the Nokian Mount and Grounds. More than I'd like LOL

Anyway they have proven to be fine tires, this model is for the 26" size.

Posters above have mentioned the importance of tire pressure. Found this to be true! A difference of 15 PSI makes a huge difference in the performance of a tire. These perform best in frozen ruts @ the maximum low, 30 psi.

Even at that though, this is a skinny tire. Looking at that frozen footpath in your pic, I wouldn't worry too much about falling... but your arms should stay really loose and sort of flow with the unpredictable nature of it. There will be surprises.

Haven't fallen yet with them. Studded tires really instill a sense of confidence. What was that old insurance company commercial? "Don't leave home without it..."
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Old 02-27-15, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Motolegs
Posters above have mentioned the importance of tire pressure. Found this to be true! A difference of 15 PSI makes a huge difference in the performance of a tire. These perform best in frozen ruts @ the maximum low, 30 psi.
I've been experimenting with my M&Gs, and have dropped them from 30/40 to 25/30 this winter. Traction and comfort have improved, and I still don't seem to be in any danger of pinch flatting.

Still pondering @Daniel4's admonition to keep the mouth open, though: is it to keep from clenching other muscles?
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