Author Topic: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy  (Read 105545 times)

RetiredAt63

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #400 on: March 20, 2015, 04:29:13 PM »
I am speechless.  The selfishness, the thoughtlessness for others.


This past week-end my kids were playing outside with the non-vaxxing neighbor kids. This was the first time in months. After 30 minutes or so, the parent said, "We'll probably head in now. Kid X has a fever and is feeling quite tired now." It was clear that he knew about said fever prior to letting our children play together.  After giving my husband a "WTF?" expression, we promptly sent our kids in to wash their hands.

Less than 24 hours later, we went to the nearby park, only to find the sick kid playing with other kids again.

Apparently the family is okay with sharing all kinds of communicable diseases with the unsuspecting public. I'm sure it's part and parcel of the same mindset of special snowflakedom and the misplaced notion that viruses and bacteria are not actually that harmful.

cjottawa

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #401 on: March 20, 2015, 07:16:22 PM »
I am speechless.  The selfishness, the thoughtlessness for others.


This past week-end my kids were playing outside with the non-vaxxing neighbor kids. This was the first time in months. After 30 minutes or so, the parent said, "We'll probably head in now. Kid X has a fever and is feeling quite tired now." It was clear that he knew about said fever prior to letting our children play together.  After giving my husband a "WTF?" expression, we promptly sent our kids in to wash their hands.

Less than 24 hours later, we went to the nearby park, only to find the sick kid playing with other kids again.

Apparently the family is okay with sharing all kinds of communicable diseases with the unsuspecting public. I'm sure it's part and parcel of the same mindset of special snowflakedom and the misplaced notion that viruses and bacteria are not actually that harmful.

Exactly what you should expect from anti-vaxxers and exactly what makes them so dangerous to all of us.

Not sure if this was posted already but CBC radio interviewed pro and anti-vaxxers recently. It's worth a listen: http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/vaccinations-assisted-suicide-ruling-organized-crime-1.2952333/vaccinations-pro-and-anti-vaxxer-parents-make-their-cases-1.2952339

The Happy Philosopher

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #402 on: March 20, 2015, 07:47:34 PM »
Vaccinate your kids.  I have seen pertussis, chicken pox, influenza and meningococcemia patients all near death. You don't want any of these diseases. They can all kill. The CDC and pharmaceutical companies are not conspiring against you.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #403 on: March 20, 2015, 08:28:16 PM »
@frugaldoc - no argument here.  I am of the generation that had the first access to polio vaccine - all our parents were so relieved.  I also had measles and chicken pox (complete with scars even now), and my sister had them plus mumps.  If there had been vaccinations for them I know my parents would have had us vaccinated. I never hesitated to get my DD vaccinated, and my sister had her children vaccinated - we knew from experience what those diseases were like, even if there were no complications.

I read once, years ago, that the main increase in lifespan (= lower mortality, especially lower childhood mortality) was due to public health measures - clean water, proper sewage treatment, and vaccination.  Since vaccinations are never 100% effective, I would not want my children exposed to children who were not vaccinated for trivial reasons.  And I feel so sorry for the parents of children who cannot be immunized, because their children are at risk from these unvaccinated children.

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #404 on: March 20, 2015, 10:26:59 PM »
Yes, it is said that civil engineers have saved more lives than doctors. Typhoid, cholera, plague...

MissPeach

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #405 on: March 27, 2015, 10:06:44 AM »
We delayed exactly one vaccine with our oldest because she was extremely underweight for her age. (7 lb. 4 oz. at birth, 25 lb. at one year). We went with the normal schedule with our second because he had had two surgeries and had spent enough time being sick that we didn't want to risk anything else with him. Our results were not typical but he is what happened: our oldest go the shot right around age 4, so she could enter preschool. Our youngest developed shingles FROM the vaccine! We thought he had a rash that wouldn't clear up to took him to the Dr. who swabbed and cultured it because it looked like shingles to her. Yup. It was. That was followed by a very nasty call from the county health department demanding to know why we hadn't vaccinated Nd who we had been in contact with. Oh, and how did we KNOW it was shingles? I told her the Dr. diagnosed it, which it now she got the information, and that we HAD vaccinated and that was why he had developed shingles. She remained very confrontational but I insisted that we hadn't done anything she was accusing me of and that she should call our Dr. to check her facts.
The only upside is that he didn't need a booster to enter school as we could just show a letter from the Dr. that he has full immunity from actually having the disease. Of course, he needed his other boosters, but he didn't have any reaction to that.
I am still a full supporter of vaccines but feel frustrated that anti-vaccination movement has put public health workers so on the defensive that the one who called me felt the need to be confrontational and not really listen until I reiterated the facts again and again.
If I had to do it over again, I would have waited a little longer to do the chicken pox vaccine. We also intend to wait a bit on Guardasil, when the time comes. When our kids are in high school we will let them make that decision in private with their Drs.
You can't get shingles from the vaccine.  Shingles is by definition the REACTIVATION of VZV from within the DRG neuron or trigeminal neurons once it has been silenced.  He could get chicken pox from the vaccine, though that is unlikely.  When you culture the virus, you would be able to tell it is VZV but that does not mean shingles/herpes zoster.  My entire Master's project was on infection of the DRGs by VZV, what you are saying is just not possible based on the definition of the disease state.

This is NOT true. Chickenpox is a LIVE vaccine. It sheds. It's the same virus as shingles. A person get get the disease (chickenpox or shingles) from coming into contact with someone who had a live vaccine. I don't know off hand what the period of time is for chicken pox but the live flu vaccine is 3 weeks.

This is the reason OPV (polio vaccine) was removed from the schedule in the US. If you look at the CDC pink book (which logs outbreaks of diseases) the only cases of Polio in the last few decades was by use of the live vaccine. That is why we not give IPV on the schedule in the US (but most 3rd world countries still use OPV). It's not deemed as effective in studies though.

On another note, there are is a lot of talk about the studies that say vaccine cause autism were debunked. It's only partially true. Dr. Wakefield's studies, who made the initial claim, were retracted. But what a lot of people don't know is that if someone is hurt by a vaccine, you cannot sue the manufacturer as they no longer have liability for the vaccines they make (this was enacted by Bush Sr). You have to file in a case in a special vaccine court. The process is long. The burden of proof is high. The potential payout is low. There have been several cases of autism where they proved a vaccine caused the autism in court. For the two existing states with medical exemptions only, most people don't understand how high the burden of proof is to get one. Many doctors will blame everything but the shots in a reaction case. I've known kids with serious seizures right after shots and the doctor won't even agree to investigate whether the vaccine had a link.

I support the right to parents (and everyone) to make an informed choice. Honestly I wouldn't have as big of an issue if it was less of a one size fits all approach. What about people with medical problems where the manufacturer says they do not recommend? The states that offer medical exemptions would NOT allow one in this case. What about people with genetic predispositions to issues that vaccines could trigger. We don't do things like genetic testing to access risks or titers to check for existing (or waning) immunity.

It's not just kids and school. Most adults are not vaccinated with the newest ones or their immunity has gone away since their childhood vaccines. The laws on the books are coming after everyone to talk the right to choose away. For example there is a bill in CA to begin tying vaccination to professions outside of health care workers. This is a very slippery slope IMO. It is still a medical treatment that comes with risks including death. It should still be an informed decision IMO. Soon it will be tied to not just education but also employment.

It's the misinformation and ignorance (as well as taking away my rights to make a decision based on my medical history) on this topic that bother me the most.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 10:27:41 AM by MissPeach »

MissPeach

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #406 on: March 27, 2015, 10:34:33 AM »
We delayed exactly one vaccine with our oldest because she was extremely underweight for her age. (7 lb. 4 oz. at birth, 25 lb. at one year). We went with the normal schedule with our second because he had had two surgeries and had spent enough time being sick that we didn't want to risk anything else with him. Our results were not typical but he is what happened: our oldest go the shot right around age 4, so she could enter preschool. Our youngest developed shingles FROM the vaccine! We thought he had a rash that wouldn't clear up to took him to the Dr. who swabbed and cultured it because it looked like shingles to her. Yup. It was. That was followed by a very nasty call from the county health department demanding to know why we hadn't vaccinated Nd who we had been in contact with. Oh, and how did we KNOW it was shingles? I told her the Dr. diagnosed it, which it now she got the information, and that we HAD vaccinated and that was why he had developed shingles. She remained very confrontational but I insisted that we hadn't done anything she was accusing me of and that she should call our Dr. to check her facts.
The only upside is that he didn't need a booster to enter school as we could just show a letter from the Dr. that he has full immunity from actually having the disease. Of course, he needed his other boosters, but he didn't have any reaction to that.
I am still a full supporter of vaccines but feel frustrated that anti-vaccination movement has put public health workers so on the defensive that the one who called me felt the need to be confrontational and not really listen until I reiterated the facts again and again.
If I had to do it over again, I would have waited a little longer to do the chicken pox vaccine. We also intend to wait a bit on Guardasil, when the time comes. When our kids are in high school we will let them make that decision in private with their Drs.
You can't get shingles from the vaccine.  Shingles is by definition the REACTIVATION of VZV from within the DRG neuron or trigeminal neurons once it has been silenced.  He could get chicken pox from the vaccine, though that is unlikely.  When you culture the virus, you would be able to tell it is VZV but that does not mean shingles/herpes zoster.  My entire Master's project was on infection of the DRGs by VZV, what you are saying is just not possible based on the definition of the disease state.

This is NOT true. Chickenpox is a LIVE vaccine. It sheds. It's the same virus as shingles. A person get get the disease (chickenpox or shingles) from coming into contact with someone who had a live vaccine. I don't know off hand what the period of time is for chicken pox but the live flu vaccine is 3 weeks.

This is the reason OPV (polio vaccine) was removed from the schedule in the US. If you look at the CDC pink book (which logs outbreaks of diseases) the only cases of Polio in the last few decades was by use of the live vaccine. That is why we not give IPV on the schedule in the US (but most 3rd world countries still use OPV). It's not deemed as effective in studies though.

On another note, there are is a lot of talk about the studies that say vaccine cause autism were debunked. It's only partially true. Dr. Wakefield's studies, who made the initial claim, were retracted. But what a lot of people don't know is that if someone is hurt by a vaccine, you cannot sue the manufacturer as they no longer have liability for the vaccines they make (this was enacted by Bush Sr). You have to file in a case in a special vaccine court. The process is long. The burden of proof is high. The potential payout is low. There have been several cases of autism where they proved a vaccine caused the autism in court. For the two existing states with medical exemptions only, most people don't understand how high the burden of proof is to get one. Many doctors will blame everything but the shots in a reaction case. I've known kids with serious seizures right after shots and the doctor won't even agree to investigate whether the vaccine had a link.

I support the right to parents (and everyone) to make an informed choice. Honestly I wouldn't have as big of an issue if it was less of a one size fits all approach. What about people with medical problems where the manufacturer says they do not recommend? The states that offer medical exemptions would NOT allow one in this case. What about people with genetic predispositions to issues that vaccines could trigger. We don't do things like genetic testing to access risks or titers to check for existing (or waning) immunity. There are people who will never have any immunity regardless of how many times they have a shot.

There are also risks of inducing immunity with only the TH2 side of the immune system. It's the TH1 part (which vaccines do nothing for) that helps build immunity to things like cancers and autoimmune deficiencies. There have been some thought-provoking articles published that we may be trading easy to overcome diseases like chickenpox with cancers and other things more deadly. Not to mention the roulette of introducing foreign DNA/RNA (SV40 which causes cancer and was in the polio vaccine for 10 years is a good example).   

It's not just kids and school. Most adults are not vaccinated with the newest ones or their immunity has gone away since their childhood vaccines. The laws on the books are coming after everyone to talk the right to choose away. For example there is a bill in CA to begin tying vaccination to professions outside of health care workers. This is a very slippery slope IMO. It is still a medical treatment that comes with risks including death. It should still be an informed decision IMO. Soon it will be tied to not just education but also employment.

It's the misinformation and ignorance (as well as taking away my rights to make a decision based on my medical history) on this topic that bother me the most.

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #407 on: March 27, 2015, 10:41:28 AM »
We delayed exactly one vaccine with our oldest because she was extremely underweight for her age. (7 lb. 4 oz. at birth, 25 lb. at one year). We went with the normal schedule with our second because he had had two surgeries and had spent enough time being sick that we didn't want to risk anything else with him. Our results were not typical but he is what happened: our oldest go the shot right around age 4, so she could enter preschool. Our youngest developed shingles FROM the vaccine! We thought he had a rash that wouldn't clear up to took him to the Dr. who swabbed and cultured it because it looked like shingles to her. Yup. It was. That was followed by a very nasty call from the county health department demanding to know why we hadn't vaccinated Nd who we had been in contact with. Oh, and how did we KNOW it was shingles? I told her the Dr. diagnosed it, which it now she got the information, and that we HAD vaccinated and that was why he had developed shingles. She remained very confrontational but I insisted that we hadn't done anything she was accusing me of and that she should call our Dr. to check her facts.
The only upside is that he didn't need a booster to enter school as we could just show a letter from the Dr. that he has full immunity from actually having the disease. Of course, he needed his other boosters, but he didn't have any reaction to that.
I am still a full supporter of vaccines but feel frustrated that anti-vaccination movement has put public health workers so on the defensive that the one who called me felt the need to be confrontational and not really listen until I reiterated the facts again and again.
If I had to do it over again, I would have waited a little longer to do the chicken pox vaccine. We also intend to wait a bit on Guardasil, when the time comes. When our kids are in high school we will let them make that decision in private with their Drs.
You can't get shingles from the vaccine.  Shingles is by definition the REACTIVATION of VZV from within the DRG neuron or trigeminal neurons once it has been silenced.  He could get chicken pox from the vaccine, though that is unlikely.  When you culture the virus, you would be able to tell it is VZV but that does not mean shingles/herpes zoster.  My entire Master's project was on infection of the DRGs by VZV, what you are saying is just not possible based on the definition of the disease state.

This is NOT true. Chickenpox is a LIVE vaccine. It sheds. It's the same virus as shingles. A person get get the disease (chickenpox or shingles) from coming into contact with someone who had a live vaccine. I don't know off hand what the period of time is for chicken pox but the live flu vaccine is 3 weeks.

This is the reason OPV (polio vaccine) was removed from the schedule in the US. If you look at the CDC pink book (which logs outbreaks of diseases) the only cases of Polio in the last few decades was by use of the live vaccine. That is why we not give IPV on the schedule in the US (but most 3rd world countries still use OPV). It's not deemed as effective in studies though.

On another note, there are is a lot of talk about the studies that say vaccine cause autism were debunked. It's only partially true. Dr. Wakefield's studies, who made the initial claim, were retracted. But what a lot of people don't know is that if someone is hurt by a vaccine, you cannot sue the manufacturer as they no longer have liability for the vaccines they make (this was enacted by Bush Sr). You have to file in a case in a special vaccine court. The process is long. The burden of proof is high. The potential payout is low. There have been several cases of autism where they proved a vaccine caused the autism in court. For the two existing states with medical exemptions only, most people don't understand how high the burden of proof is to get one. Many doctors will blame everything but the shots in a reaction case. I've known kids with serious seizures right after shots and the doctor won't even agree to investigate whether the vaccine had a link.

I support the right to parents (and everyone) to make an informed choice. Honestly I wouldn't have as big of an issue if it was less of a one size fits all approach. What about people with medical problems where the manufacturer says they do not recommend? The states that offer medical exemptions would NOT allow one in this case. What about people with genetic predispositions to issues that vaccines could trigger. We don't do things like genetic testing to access risks or titers to check for existing (or waning) immunity.

It's not just kids and school. Most adults are not vaccinated with the newest ones or their immunity has gone away since their childhood vaccines. The laws on the books are coming after everyone to talk the right to choose away. For example there is a bill in CA to begin tying vaccination to professions outside of health care workers. This is a very slippery slope IMO. It is still a medical treatment that comes with risks including death. It should still be an informed decision IMO. Soon it will be tied to not just education but also employment.

It's the misinformation and ignorance (as well as taking away my rights to make a decision based on my medical history) on this topic that bother me the most.
I find your comment ironic.  I worked with this virus for over two years.  I've studied the disease state, epidemiological changes of both shingles and chicken pox and drug treatments for it.  You cannot get shingles from exposure to chicken pox.  You can get chicken pox.  Again, shingles is by definition, the reactivation of the virus within the ganglion after it has been silenced.  You MUST have the virus silenced for it to qualify as shingles.  So really, you need to get a bit more education before declaring those with education ignorant. 
You are complaining about ignorance but don't understand the disease, research or legal issues you are talking about.  For example, yes vaccine cause autism were debunked, it has been tested in multiple countries, with multiple funded sources and multiple investigators.  There is absolutely no correlation or causation between the two.  Vaccines do not cause Autism, 100% full stop.  No, no one has ever shown any small bit of evidence to the contrary, that is partly why it was debunked.  If you want to say a court agreed (legal, not scientific) site the case law. 
And btw, many employers do require flu vaccines, and if you want the job you get one.  Many private school require it, not of just students but employees.  So you are a little behind on your complains.  You want to complain about the lack of informed consent, then you need to get a lot more informed.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 10:44:37 AM by Gin1984 »

deborah

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dividendman

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #409 on: March 27, 2015, 09:38:13 PM »
Just read this

http://www.essentialbaby.com.au/baby/baby-health/toni-another-baby-has-died-the-anguish-of-watching-governments-fail-our-babies-20150327-1m904g.html

Reading this, my reaction is we should sterilize all anti-vaccers (vaxxers?) and not allow them to adopt. At a minimum they are guilty of manslaughter.


BeerBeard

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #411 on: April 01, 2015, 01:40:01 PM »
I've seen so many anti vaccination memes being on facebook, it blows my mind how many people can defend indefensible arguments.

forummm

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #412 on: April 02, 2015, 11:11:36 AM »
There are a lot of generally stupid and crazy people in the world. But we all have things we are stupid about. It's really interesting and amazing that the world actually "works" (sort of) given the substantial proliferation of idiots everywhere.

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #413 on: April 02, 2015, 12:10:51 PM »
There are a lot of generally stupid and crazy people in the world. But we all have things we are stupid about. It's really interesting and amazing that the world actually "works" (sort of) given the substantial proliferation of idiots everywhere.

No kidding.  Especially because research shows that when you give misinformed people correct information, it actually makes them even MORE attached to their misinformed viewpoint. 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-people-fly-from-facts/

That is about the most discouraging thing I've ever heard.

MissPeach

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #414 on: April 03, 2015, 10:33:21 AM »
You can't get shingles from the vaccine.  Shingles is by definition the REACTIVATION of VZV from within the DRG neuron or trigeminal neurons once it has been silenced.  He could get chicken pox from the vaccine, though that is unlikely.  When you culture the virus, you would be able to tell it is VZV but that does not mean shingles/herpes zoster.  My entire Master's project was on infection of the DRGs by VZV, what you are saying is just not possible based on the definition of the disease state.

This wasn't what I said. I said it originates from the same virus. Even Merck admits the vaccine sheds.

From the package insert:
"Avoid contact with high-risk individuals susceptible to varicella
because of possible transmission of varicella vaccine virus. (5.4) "

https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf

I never said anything like they are all bad. I just said they are still a medical product and they are contraindicated for some people and that should be a discussion between that person (and possible their parents) and their doctors.

I just don't like this black and white thinking that is developing where anyone questioning or declining ANY vaccine (even for something like the flu shot) is an idiot and a danger. Especially after reading documents published in major publications like this:

"Increased risk of non-influenza respiratory virus infections associated with receipt of inactivated influenza vaccine"

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/13/cid.cis307
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 10:37:36 AM by MissPeach »

SisterX

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #415 on: April 03, 2015, 11:58:21 AM »
Just read this

http://www.essentialbaby.com.au/baby/baby-health/toni-another-baby-has-died-the-anguish-of-watching-governments-fail-our-babies-20150327-1m904g.html

This was absolutely my biggest fear after my daughter was born, since there was a small whooping cough outbreak in my state.  My OB gave me a booster shot during my third trimester so I knew that gave her a small immunity, but still.  I can't believe there are so many people who think that whooping cough is something to fuck around with, especially when it is so clearly proven to be quite deadly.
NOVA recently had an episode about vaccines which was fascinating.  I started crying right in the beginning, watching the little baby with whooping cough.  I can't imagine being in the shoes of those parents, having to watch that.  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/vaccines-calling-shots.html

I had a girls' night a month or two ago and we, all women in our late 20s or early 30s, ended up talking about our chicken pox experiences and showing off our scars, and saying how glad we are that our kids won't have to go through that.  Do some people just not remember how miserable it was, even aside from potentially deadly complications?  The fact that we all remember having it, despite our young ages (ranging from 2-6), is an indicator of how awful it was.  I don't remember many other particular illnesses from childhood, but I do remember that one.

To the people defending the anti-vaccine stance, please read "Mrs. Mike".  Read about the Frenchwoman who talks about her first, second, and third families, which is what she called the groups of children who ALL died of now-preventable diseases, then try telling yourself that the very, very low risks of vaccinating are too costly. 
And, stop being stupid.  Get the fucking vaccines.

Dee

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #416 on: April 09, 2015, 03:59:06 PM »
I hope this woman has an impact: "All seven of my unvaccinated children have whooping cough, and the kicker is that they may have given it to my five month old niece, too young to be fully vaccinated." http://thescientificparent.org/learning-the-hard-way-my-journey-from-antivaxx-to-science/

Lots of comments (over 700) on this coverage of her story:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/tara-hills-ottawa-mom-changes-anti-vaccination-stand-but-7-kids-still-get-sick-1.3025592


I feel like this could have an impact within the community of people who are suspicious of vaccines. I certainly hope so.

Flyingkea

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #417 on: April 12, 2015, 05:44:50 AM »
Heh, just into an argument on facebook about vaccination with some of the mums from the mothers group. In the end, I had to bow out because I was so pissed off about the false analogies, lies and misconceptions they were trying to talk about. Oh and apparantly homeopathy works.
Herre's a nice little quote about whooping cough
Quote
And even if every single one of us is immunised for every strain of whooping cough babies will still die of whooping cough. Because the immunisation does not stop you contracting and spreading but rather in a great number of individuals will lessen the severity making them spread a disease that they didnt even know they had :( babies and immuno suppressed will still be at just as high a risk.
she was using it to argue against vaccines.
Her next comment was:
Quote
There is some flawed logic here. So you have never sped in a car? Never left the house with a cold/gastro? Eaten a snickers bar while pushing a supermarket trolley? All of those things and many many more can be considered a risk of causing a life or death situation  to members of your community?!

marty998

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #418 on: April 12, 2015, 05:58:47 AM »
No vacs, no welfare....Aus government just announced today that parents who do not vaccinate their children will not be entitled to child care rebates and other benefits.

I hope this woman has an impact: "All seven of my unvaccinated children have whooping cough, and the kicker is that they may have given it to my five month old niece, too young to be fully vaccinated." http://thescientificparent.org/learning-the-hard-way-my-journey-from-antivaxx-to-science/

Lots of comments (over 700) on this coverage of her story:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/tara-hills-ottawa-mom-changes-anti-vaccination-stand-but-7-kids-still-get-sick-1.3025592


I feel like this could have an impact within the community of people who are suspicious of vaccines. I certainly hope so.

Easy for us to sit here and troll her, but she must be going through the proverbial 7 circles of hell. Irresponsible as she is, I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

If it took a travesty like that to get her to change her mind, we may never win this debate against the anti-vaxxers. It's just too late after the kids have died.

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #419 on: April 12, 2015, 06:57:08 AM »
I have been ignoring this thread but this recent conversation made me chime:

Me to our family pediatrician: "I heard you might be accepting new patients again.  Is that true? Shall I start recommending friends to you again?"
Pediatrician: "Yes, I am open to new patients.  Please check to see how they feel about vaccinations first.  I won't accept any more patients who don't believe in vaccination. We have too many already because other practices keep kicking them out."

He now has a book in his waiting area now which is basically a photo coffee table book.  Each pair of pages has a brief description about a disease that can be vaccinated against, some stats, and then the page on the opposite side has a prosperous-looking adult posing with a photograph of their child who died from that disease.

The only way I would not vaccinate would be if my child had a life threatening allergic reaction to one. And I mean actually life-threatening. One of my children has had some minor reactions (redness, swelling.)  We keep vaccinating.

Some background about me:
My Mom had polio as a child and still has some post-polio paralysis problems with her throat. She has said a couple of times that she will probably die by choking to death because of this, so she has it documented thoroughly so that the police will never accuse family of killing her by choking or smothering her.
 
I think I nearly died one year from the flu (I probably would have died if I hadn't been extremely healthy and in my mid-20's.) Since then I have gotten the flu shot every year. It doesn't matter if they "miss" the strain one year, it matters that my body is slowly building a memory bank of antibodies against various strains of flu. Maybe some day one of these will be close enough to a new strain to save my life and I won't even know it happened!  :-)

Chicken pox vaccine didn't exist when I was a kid and I got chicken pox as an adult.  It really sucked and left me with some scars.

I understand that everything around us (the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat, the protein and DNA in our body) is a chemical.  Chemicals are, in fact, necessary to sustain life.  Anyone who says that the face cream she sells is "chemical free" is not only uneducated but ignorant and somewhat proud of it, although I would resist telling her that to her face.

The traction of this anti-vac movement just indicates to me that we are moving rapidly toward an idiocracy.

scrubbyfish

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #420 on: April 12, 2015, 10:27:28 AM »
In three (real life) people I know, they didn't vaccinate their children because of the severe reactions (brain swelling, etc) they had to vaccinations (two as young children, one as a mid-teen). Where the CDC (?) chart of adverse reactions reflects a person's direct experience, I imagine it weighs far more heavily than it might for others.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #421 on: April 12, 2015, 11:41:50 AM »
The parent or the child had the reaction?

I don't think anyone advocates vaccinating those with severe allergies to something that is in a vaccine.  They are part of the 5% that needs protection by vaccinating the 95%.  However, if a parent had a severe reaction to a vaccine as a child, that does not mean they automatically should not vaccinate their children.  The child may not have the same allergy, the formulation of the vaccine may have changed.  It needs to be decided on a case by case basis.

My arm was red, inflamed and sore for a week after my flu vaccine this winter.  I will be getting the vaccine again next year - 1. I am around elderly people every week as part of my therapy dog visits, and 2.  2 grandparents died of the Spanish flu - so there could be a genetic vulnerability in my family.

Oh, by the way, the mother in Ottawa had already started vaccinating her children, and she and her doctor had worked out a catchup schedule - her children got sick before all the catch-up vaccination had been done.  Truly a "If I had started this a few months sooner we would not have had this happen" situation.

In three (real life) people I know, they didn't vaccinate their children because of the severe reactions (brain swelling, etc) they had to vaccinations (two as young children, one as a mid-teen). Where the CDC (?) chart of adverse reactions reflects a person's direct experience, I imagine it weighs far more heavily than it might for others.

scrubbyfish

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #422 on: April 12, 2015, 01:30:09 PM »
The parent or the child had the reaction?

The person had the severe* reaction as a child (or teen). When they became a parent (10-17 years later), they opted not to vaccinate their own children.

One of the challenges that has come up in Canada is that experienced by the "middle road" group, those who want to vaccinate but single vaccine at a time and each vaccine some months apart from each other, in an attempt to mitigate adverse results. I think when Canada makes that an option, we'll see a big upswing in vaccinations here. Pre-screening for allergies, and similar ideas mentioned in this thread, are all great ideas to bring everyone to a shared conclusion.

* These three didn't have rash/localized swelling. They had severe, life-threatening reactions and were hospitalized for a considerable period. I can appreciate how terrified they are.

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #423 on: April 12, 2015, 01:51:42 PM »
The parent or the child had the reaction?

The person had the severe* reaction as a child (or teen). When they became a parent (10-17 years later), they opted not to vaccinate their own children.

One of the challenges that has come up in Canada is that experienced by the "middle road" group, those who want to vaccinate but single vaccine at a time and each vaccine some months apart from each other, in an attempt to mitigate adverse results. I think when Canada makes that an option, we'll see a big upswing in vaccinations here. Pre-screening for allergies, and similar ideas mentioned in this thread, are all great ideas to bring everyone to a shared conclusion.

* These three didn't have rash/localized swelling. They had severe, life-threatening reactions and were hospitalized for a considerable period. I can appreciate how terrified they are.
I had a severe reaction to a drug as a child and was hospitalized.  Yes, it increases the chance my daughter may have it but she got the drug because the other medication choice was not a good idea.  The MD and I went over the two choices and the possible issues with both and made a plan for if my daughter had a reaction but I made the choice that was best for my child. 
Choosing not to get a treatment that could save your child because the consequence could be hospitalization make very little sense to me.  I understand being afraid but if you won't do what is best for your child, regardless, I do judge you as a parent.  The child's well being has to come first, over your fear.  How about fearing your child dying because they can't breath and the medical practitioners having no way to help?  Instead of something that they could and did help with (and btw, vaccines have been improved and side effects decreased since most parents were children).
And that is not a middle road.  You are increase the time that the child is at risk for no actual value (because they actually do have to test to see if doing the vaccines together increase harm).  The idea that this is a middle ground is as harmful as the idea that vaccines cause autism and just as incorrect.  And, per the rules of this board, I won't say what I think of people who think it is a "middle ground". 

scrubbyfish

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #424 on: April 12, 2015, 02:08:03 PM »
I had a severe reaction to a drug as a child and was hospitalized.  Yes, it increases the chance my daughter may have it but she got the drug because the other medication choice was not a good idea.  The MD and I went over the two choices and the possible issues with both and made a plan for if my daughter had a reaction but I made the choice that was best for my child.

Yes, to me that seems like the optimal path: Consider all the information you can locate about a given issue, consult with someone you feel you have good reason to trust, then make the decision that seems right.

Choosing not to get a treatment that could save your child because the consequence could be hospitalization make very little sense to me.

I think a lot of this conversation is about precisely that: one person's idea "not making sense" against another person's idea. That's the best place for true conversation.

These people weren't opting out because of fear their child would be hospitalized; they were opting out because they feared their child would not make it to the hospital in time (or that the emergency care would be "too little too late"), and be dead or disabled. (In a non-vaccine story, one of my own siblings had a severe, post-injury issue but the doctor missed it. She was saved in time, but the delay in care meant she barely skirted death. I witnessed how that coloured my dad's care for us and his grandkids in all the years subsequent. I've made different decisions than he did, but I still understand him and empathize.)

I understand being afraid but if you won't do what is best for your child, regardless, I do judge [the] parent.

And I think that's fine. Humans judge each other. That's okay. (I also think it's okay to understand and empathize, as well. We can even do a bit of each simultaneously.)

...(and btw, vaccines have been improved and side effects decreased since most parents were children).

Yes. That's why I included the interim number of years in my previous post, as I was aware people would for sure want to factor the timeline in.

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #425 on: April 12, 2015, 03:00:52 PM »
But the problem is that most adults don't have enough science/medical knowledge to determine if the information they are given has even a passing resemblance to reality.  How many people say such things as autism is caused by vaccines or I won't put poisons in my child etc. 
I think, that if you want to make decision that disagree with the professionals, you need to be able to do this.  It is one of the reasons I am so unhappy about today's educational system.  I know students who left high school without taking a single science class, how can they understand that information and make informed decisions, not ones based on emotion or ignorance?
And how can we, as a society, say that you may neglect to give your child life saving treatments because you feel they are bad.  We don't allow that for faith healers or pretty much any other accepted medical care, why this?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 03:02:55 PM by Gin1984 »

scrubbyfish

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #426 on: April 12, 2015, 03:08:50 PM »
How many people say such things as autism is caused by vaccines or I won't put poisons in my child etc.

(None that I've listened to about it, though maybe this is different in different areas?)
 
It is one of the reasons I am so unhappy about today's educational system.

Yep. What I most want my kid to learn in school is critical thinking. Not parroting, not dismissing, not blurting, not automatically believing, not assuming, not appeals to authority... thinking critically, which in my mind relates to science. I don't think schools do enough of this, by a long shot, so I really emphasize this (as well as kindness, empathy, reflective listening and other practices I see as most important) in our conversations and life at home.


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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #427 on: April 14, 2015, 07:12:57 AM »
An important part of critical thinking is recognizing the weight of evidence.  To date there is no credible evidence supporting the idea that avoiding routine vaccination is beneficial.  By definition then, being anti-vaccination eschews critical thinking.

As children, we do stupid things.  We jump off the roof of a house with an umbrella thinking that we'll float down softly.  As an adult it becomes your responsibility to think critically.  Not vaccinating your kids is no different to providing a ladder and umbrella to your kids and hoping it all works out.  It's negligent.  I have difficulty feeling sympathy for the parents in these situations . . . they're living out exactly what they chose.

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #428 on: April 14, 2015, 07:26:01 AM »
An important part of critical thinking is recognizing the weight of evidence.  To date there is no credible evidence supporting the idea that avoiding routine vaccination is beneficial.  By definition then, being anti-vaccination eschews critical thinking.

As children, we do stupid things.  We jump off the roof of a house with an umbrella thinking that we'll float down softly.  As an adult it becomes your responsibility to think critically.  Not vaccinating your kids is no different to providing a ladder and umbrella to your kids and hoping it all works out.  It's negligent.  I have difficulty feeling sympathy for the parents in these situations . . . they're living out exactly what they chose.
Problem is when they then infect other children, especially those too young for the vaccinations.
One of the mums at my mothers group had refused to vaccinate her first 2 children. Then her 3rd was born, was was told that her child couldn't handle mild infections so she then very reluctantly had her first 2 children vaccinated. I couldn't help but think how selfish she was, refusing to vaccinate for other peoples children, as she said herself, they're vaccinated/will be fine, but then, a problem with her latest child, and she's getting them done on a delayed schedule.
Australia is making it mandatory to have your children vaccinated in order to get childcare/tax benefits, and her and a bunch of other parents in the group are all up in arms about "them taking our choice away! What about the poor people! it should be the parents choice! They wouldn't let me use only homeopathy on my child! (I wish I was joking on this one)"
What frustrates me as well, is it's a group with some very little babies, some only a few days old etc, or there are others that have immune issues. I love going to the group, but I was about ready to quit it the other day.

justajane

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #429 on: April 14, 2015, 07:48:00 AM »
Problem is when they then infect other children, especially those too young for the vaccinations.
One of the mums at my mothers group had refused to vaccinate her first 2 children. Then her 3rd was born, was was told that her child couldn't handle mild infections so she then very reluctantly had her first 2 children vaccinated. I couldn't help but think how selfish she was, refusing to vaccinate for other peoples children, as she said herself, they're vaccinated/will be fine, but then, a problem with her latest child, and she's getting them done on a delayed schedule.
Australia is making it mandatory to have your children vaccinated in order to get childcare/tax benefits, and her and a bunch of other parents in the group are all up in arms about "them taking our choice away! What about the poor people! it should be the parents choice! They wouldn't let me use only homeopathy on my child! (I wish I was joking on this one)"
What frustrates me as well, is it's a group with some very little babies, some only a few days old etc, or there are others that have immune issues. I love going to the group, but I was about ready to quit it the other day.

And I find that people like this make me feel like a zealot, when in actuality they are the ones who should feel that way and be embarrassed by their loyalty to woo. Here's an example. I actually felt bad asking close family members to be sure that they were up to date on their Tdap when they visited our newborn children. My FIL and step MIL in particular probably were offended by this, as if this were some unreasonable request.

But then again, they are the ones I have to stay silent on when they talk about the most recent and definitive article they read in their natural news magazines about how X or Y food or drink causes cancer.  I also had to listen to them pontificate about how a sister got the flu after getting the flu vaccine and how dense she was for not realizing that the vaccine caused it. My step MIL's close to exact words, "I mean, "duh!". She got the vaccine and then got sick a few days later. You think she'd figure out cause and effect!" For the sake of the relationship, I just keep quiet. She's told us for years that my husband is going to die from drinking diet soda, because that's what she's read in a magazine. Apparently it (although she won't isolate what it is in the soda that causes it - is it the carbonation, the sugar, the chemicals, etc?) will cause everything from pancreatic cancer to the impending fall of civilization itself :). Soda is clearly not a healthy beverage, but the unscientific claims and the sources of their knowledge really get to me.

workathomedad

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #430 on: April 14, 2015, 07:53:03 AM »
There are some logical problems from both sides of the aisle.

"All vaccines are good" is an inaccurate statement. One could more accurately assert "for most people, the benefits of most vaccines outweigh the risks." Each new vaccine or medical drug brought to market should be looked at from a benefit/risk scenario. New drugs are generally brought to the market for profit and may provide less additional benefit than previous ones.

I'm of the opinion that the Chicken Pox vaccine and Gardasil aren't beneficial to most people. I don't think the statistics justify their wide distribution and marketing. Also, some vaccines have been taken off market and been replaced with better ones because of the adverse side effects from the old version. It's an ongoing process. It really offends people to assert this though, because there is a general consensus that all new drugs are good or they wouldn't exist, that is, a general faith in the products of or medical industry. It is, of course, entirely possible a "vaccine" will be created that doesn't actually address a real problem, or where the side effects/risks could outweigh the benefits - to deny so is a matter of faith and not intelligence or logic.

"All vaccines are bad" is also unqualified. What the person really means is, "living in a relatively protected and clean environment with first-world hospital care, I'm more afraid of the potential side-effects vaccine than of catching X disease." I imagine if the same person was in Y country, with high rates of death from Z disease, they would probably change see the real effects of the disease and change the risk/reward scenario in their heads.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 08:14:18 AM by workathomedad »

scrubbyfish

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #431 on: April 14, 2015, 08:09:54 AM »
There are some logical problems from both sides of the aisle.

"All vaccines are good" is an inaccurate statement. One could more accurately assert "for most people, the benefits of most vaccines outweigh the risks." Each new vaccine or medical drug brought to market should be looked at from a benefit/risk scenario. New drugs are generally brought to the market for profit and may provide less additional benefit than previous ones.

I'm of the opinion that the Chicken Pox vaccine and Gardasil aren't beneficial to most people. I don't think the statistics justify their wide distribution and marketing. Also, some vaccines have been taken off market and been replaced with better ones because of the adverse side effects from the old version. It's an ongoing process. It really offends people to assert this though, because there is a general consensus that all new drugs are good or they wouldn't exist, that is, a general faith in the products of or medical industry. It is, of course, entirely possible a "vaccine" will be created that doesn't actually address a real problem, or where the side effects/risks could outweigh the benefits - to deny so is a matter of faith and not intelligence or logic.

"All vaccines are bad" is also unqualified. What the person really means is, "living in a relatively protected and clean environment with first-world hospital care, I'm more afraid of the potential side-effects vaccine than of catching X disease." I imagine if the same person was in Y country, with high rates of death from Z disease, they would probably change see the real effects of the disease and change the risk/reward scenario in their heads.

That was an excellent example, in my mind, of critical thinking. Loved that. Thanks.

justajane

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #432 on: April 14, 2015, 08:26:47 AM »
There are some logical problems from both sides of the aisle.

"All vaccines are good" is an inaccurate statement. One could more accurately assert "for most people, the benefits of most vaccines outweigh the risks." Each new vaccine or medical drug brought to market should be looked at from a benefit/risk scenario. New drugs are generally brought to the market for profit and may provide less additional benefit than previous ones.

I'm of the opinion that the Chicken Pox vaccine and Gardasil aren't beneficial to most people. I don't think the statistics justify their wide distribution and marketing. Also, some vaccines have been taken off market and been replaced with better ones because of the adverse side effects from the old version. It's an ongoing process. It really offends people to assert this though, because there is a general consensus that all new drugs are good or they wouldn't exist, that is, a general faith in the products of or medical industry. It is, of course, entirely possible a "vaccine" will be created that doesn't actually address a real problem, or where the side effects/risks could outweigh the benefits - to deny so is a matter of faith and not intelligence or logic.

"All vaccines are bad" is also unqualified. What the person really means is, "living in a relatively protected and clean environment with first-world hospital care, I'm more afraid of the potential side-effects vaccine than of catching X disease." I imagine if the same person was in Y country, with high rates of death from Z disease, they would probably change see the real effects of the disease and change the risk/reward scenario in their heads.

That was an excellent example, in my mind, of critical thinking. Loved that. Thanks.

Yes, I appreciate this approach too. I struggled with the chicken pox vaccine for my kids but came to the conclusion that not getting shingles in adulthood was a big plus. I still haven't made up my mind either way about Gardasil. My kids are too young anyway, but I hope they improve the vaccine by the time the decision rolls around for us.

I definitely don't have an uncritical view of drugs in general. Many times the "cure" seems to be worse than the disease. Last year I was given the antibiotic Levaquin for an ear infection. The side effects were off the charts horrible, and I'm not convinced that I don't experience residual side effects even nine months later. Unless I'm dying of an infection and need it to survive, I will not consent to any form of fluoroquinolones again.

Having said that, I guess I just don't see vaccines the same way I do pharmaceutical drugs. They are the non-lucrative side of "Big Pharma."

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #433 on: April 14, 2015, 08:31:18 AM »
I'd like to see some facts on how you got to your opinion that the chicken pox vaccine and gardasil are not vaccines you should have your child take.  Because you seem to missing the part where it takes a long time for vaccines to become recommended, at least in the USA.  For example, chicken pox, do you know how long it has been used in Europe.  Or have you read the epidemiological studies from Europe comparing hospital stays for chicken pox prior to the vaccine vs now.  What is the base for your opinion?

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #434 on: April 14, 2015, 08:33:11 AM »
There are some logical problems from both sides of the aisle.

"All vaccines are good" is an inaccurate statement. One could more accurately assert "for most people, the benefits of most vaccines outweigh the risks." Each new vaccine or medical drug brought to market should be looked at from a benefit/risk scenario. New drugs are generally brought to the market for profit and may provide less additional benefit than previous ones.

I'm of the opinion that the Chicken Pox vaccine and Gardasil aren't beneficial to most people. I don't think the statistics justify their wide distribution and marketing. Also, some vaccines have been taken off market and been replaced with better ones because of the adverse side effects from the old version. It's an ongoing process. It really offends people to assert this though, because there is a general consensus that all new drugs are good or they wouldn't exist, that is, a general faith in the products of or medical industry. It is, of course, entirely possible a "vaccine" will be created that doesn't actually address a real problem, or where the side effects/risks could outweigh the benefits - to deny so is a matter of faith and not intelligence or logic.

"All vaccines are bad" is also unqualified. What the person really means is, "living in a relatively protected and clean environment with first-world hospital care, I'm more afraid of the potential side-effects vaccine than of catching X disease." I imagine if the same person was in Y country, with high rates of death from Z disease, they would probably change see the real effects of the disease and change the risk/reward scenario in their heads.

That was an excellent example, in my mind, of critical thinking. Loved that. Thanks.

Yes, I appreciate this approach too. I struggled with the chicken pox vaccine for my kids but came to the conclusion that not getting shingles in adulthood was a big plus. I still haven't made up my mind either way about Gardasil. My kids are too young anyway, but I hope they improve the vaccine by the time the decision rolls around for us.

I definitely don't have an uncritical view of drugs in general. Many times the "cure" seems to be worse than the disease. Last year I was given the antibiotic Levaquin for an ear infection. The side effects were off the charts horrible, and I'm not convinced that I don't experience residual side effects even nine months later. Unless I'm dying of an infection and need it to survive, I will not consent to any form of fluoroquinolones again.

Having said that, I guess I just don't see vaccines the same way I do pharmaceutical drugs. They are the non-lucrative side of "Big Pharma."
That is not true.  I can send you studies from Europe where the vaccine has been in use, shingles cases have increased, not decreased with the chicken pox vaccine.  This is because they have not figured out how to make a dead virus work in this vaccine.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 08:10:42 PM by Gin1984 »

justajane

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #435 on: April 14, 2015, 09:10:34 AM »
I did not realize this, Gin. Thank you for the information. Honestly my biggest reservation was the possibility that my children might neglect the booster needed in adulthood and then travel abroad and contract chicken pox. And (correct me if I am wrong) since chicken pox is worse when contracted later in life, this concerned me.

Regardless, they have all received the vaccine (at least those who are old enough). My concerns didn't outweigh the general recommendations for the vaccine and the fact that they were mandatory for school admission. We have a religious exemption in my state, but I would never go down that route anyway. It's disingenuous, since very few if any religions actually explicitly speak out against vaccines.

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #436 on: April 14, 2015, 09:17:10 AM »
I did not realize this, Gin. Thank you for the information. Honestly my biggest reservation was the possibility that my children might neglect the booster needed in adulthood and then travel abroad and contract chicken pox. And (correct me if I am wrong) since chicken pox is worse when contracted later in life, this concerned me.

Regardless, they have all received the vaccine (at least those who are old enough). My concerns didn't outweigh the general recommendations for the vaccine and the fact that they were mandatory for school admission. We have a religious exemption in my state, but I would never go down that route anyway. It's disingenuous, since very few if any religions actually explicitly speak out against vaccines.
That is my biggest concern as well, I'd put it on their Facebook to remind them, lol.  My preference, based on my knowledge of the disease, would be vaccination at 4 and 10 not 1 and 4, but my options were send them to a daycare that allowed lack of vaccinations (huge risk) or get her the vaccines so she could stay in her current daycare.  You can guess which I chose.  :)  Even those who developed the vaccine said the earlier vaccine schedule for this one was partly based on parental convenience and partly on keeping 1-3 year olds from getting sick (they are at risk).
I know people are still working a dead version of vaccine which will be very good. 

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #437 on: April 14, 2015, 10:19:28 AM »
There are some logical problems from both sides of the aisle.

"All vaccines are good" is an inaccurate statement. One could more accurately assert "for most people, the benefits of most vaccines outweigh the risks." Each new vaccine or medical drug brought to market should be looked at from a benefit/risk scenario. New drugs are generally brought to the market for profit and may provide less additional benefit than previous ones.

I'm of the opinion that the Chicken Pox vaccine and Gardasil aren't beneficial to most people. I don't think the statistics justify their wide distribution and marketing. Also, some vaccines have been taken off market and been replaced with better ones because of the adverse side effects from the old version. It's an ongoing process. It really offends people to assert this though, because there is a general consensus that all new drugs are good or they wouldn't exist, that is, a general faith in the products of or medical industry. It is, of course, entirely possible a "vaccine" will be created that doesn't actually address a real problem, or where the side effects/risks could outweigh the benefits - to deny so is a matter of faith and not intelligence or logic.

"All vaccines are bad" is also unqualified. What the person really means is, "living in a relatively protected and clean environment with first-world hospital care, I'm more afraid of the potential side-effects vaccine than of catching X disease." I imagine if the same person was in Y country, with high rates of death from Z disease, they would probably change see the real effects of the disease and change the risk/reward scenario in their heads.

That was an excellent example, in my mind, of critical thinking. Loved that. Thanks.

Which part was critical thinking?

* "New drugs are generally brought to the market for profit and may provide less additional benefit than previous ones." - unsupported speculation.

* "the Chicken Pox vaccine and Gardasil aren't beneficial to most people" - unsupported speculation.

* "Each new vaccine or medical drug brought to market should be looked at from a benefit/risk scenario." True . . . but irrelevant in context.  Each new vaccine and medical drug brought to market is looked at from a benefit/risk scenario before it's ever sold http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/resdev/test-approve.htm.

* "some vaccines have been taken off market and been replaced with better ones because of the adverse side effects from the old version. It's an ongoing process."  True . . . but a red herring.  Showing that medicine improves over time isn't a valid reason to avoid medicine.

* "It is, of course, entirely possible a "vaccine" will be created that doesn't actually address a real problem, or where the side effects/risks could outweigh the benefits - to deny so is a matter of faith and not intelligence or logic."  True . . . but a straw man.  As has already been mentioned, there's a pretty rigorous testing system in place that is designed to prevent this from happening.  There's also an ongoing system of monitoring that is able to find the rare instances that something slips through the initial testing . . . (often something is pulled from the market even if there's no proof that it does harm - http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/history-lyme-disease-vaccine).  Is it possible that you could be given a bad vaccine?  Yes.  Is it likely?  Nope, not at all.

* "I imagine if the same person was in Y country, with high rates of death from Z disease, they would probably change see the real effects of the disease and change the risk/reward scenario in their heads."  More unsupported speculation.


Presenting both sides of an issue as being reasonable isn't an example of critical thinking if available evidence overwhelmingly supports one side . . .

scrubbyfish

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #438 on: April 14, 2015, 12:28:03 PM »
Presenting both sides of an issue as being reasonable isn't an example of critical thinking

Agreed.

I was trying to say that the post reflected -or was a good example of- the results of one person's critical thinking. Why? Because to me critical thinking is not "read statistics, apply the numbers" (e.g., "If a vaccine kills only 1/1000 people, and some people said it's best, then do it.") To me, critical thinking would be the process of honestly, objectively, and openly exploring as many factors as possible. In this thread's example, perhaps questions like:
  • What is the range of numbers presented by all parties presenting numbers?
  • How accurate and reliable has each party been in other presentations?
  • What interests does each party have?
  • What testing was involved? How rigorous was it? What parties was it substantiated by?
  • Is there common ground between parties? Is that common ground being honoured or circumvented? If the latter, why?
  • Over what duration have records been kept, and what records?
  • What is the effect of that 1/1000 death?
  • What injuries, to the vaccinated person and to those around him, are possible?
  • What injuries, to the unvaccinated person and to those around him, are possible?
  • What injuries in either are the norm?
  • What are the personal, community, and financial costs of injuries?
  • Are vaccines more relevant in some environments than others?
  • Are there factors even more useful and safe than vaccines?
  • Does the use of vaccines interfere with other approaches?
  • What factors impact the safety of vaccines? Which of these have been implemented? Where? When?
  • What other factors have been studied/dismissed/ignored to date?
  • Where does my belief that the 999 are more important than the one, or that the one is more important than the 999 come from? Is my belief sound?
Where critical thinking is applied, it's very difficult to anticipate what each person's ultimate determination will be. i.e., It's unlikely that all person thinking critically will arrive at the same conclusion.

And oh, man, I know...Good luck to any parent or doctor in such an exploration!! (Which might lead one to a critical thinking process around: Who does one trust? On what basis? And so on.)

deborah

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #439 on: April 14, 2015, 02:56:45 PM »
What absolute rubbish!

Repeat after me SHINGLES IS NOT CAUSED BY CHICKENPOX VACCINE - IT CAN ONLY BE CAUSED BY PREVIOUSLY HAVING HAD CHICKEN POX YOURSELF!!!

The reason you may find shingles cases increasing is that people are AVOIDING the vaccine because they are stupid, and thus MORE people are getting chicken pox - and thus later getting shingles. OR it might just be that the population is increasing. And I would like to see a reference to something that has the actual figures rather than hearsay.

Kris

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #440 on: April 14, 2015, 04:48:48 PM »
What absolute rubbish!

Repeat after me SHINGLES IS NOT CAUSED BY CHICKENPOX VACCINE - IT CAN ONLY BE CAUSED BY PREVIOUSLY HAVING HAD CHICKEN POX YOURSELF!!!

The reason you may find shingles cases increasing is that people are AVOIDING the vaccine because they are stupid, and thus MORE people are getting chicken pox - and thus later getting shingles. OR it might just be that the population is increasing. And I would like to see a reference to something that has the actual figures rather than hearsay.

Not true.  It is possible to get shingles caused by the chicken pox vaccine. The vaccine strain can reawaken later in life and cause shingles. (And btw, I am pro-vaccine, and pro-chicken pox vaccine, though it didn't exist when I was a kid).

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/varicella/

Look under "Other Safety Information."

deborah

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #441 on: April 14, 2015, 05:10:59 PM »
What absolute rubbish!

Repeat after me SHINGLES IS NOT CAUSED BY CHICKENPOX VACCINE - IT CAN ONLY BE CAUSED BY PREVIOUSLY HAVING HAD CHICKEN POX YOURSELF!!!

The reason you may find shingles cases increasing is that people are AVOIDING the vaccine because they are stupid, and thus MORE people are getting chicken pox - and thus later getting shingles. OR it might just be that the population is increasing. And I would like to see a reference to something that has the actual figures rather than hearsay.

Not true.  It is possible to get shingles caused by the chicken pox vaccine. The vaccine strain can reawaken later in life and cause shingles. (And btw, I am pro-vaccine, and pro-chicken pox vaccine, though it didn't exist when I was a kid).

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/varicella/

Look under "Other Safety Information."
Not true - look for previous comments by a person who actually works in the chickenpox vaccine area further up this thread who says SHINGLES IS NOT CAUSED BY CHICKENPOX VACCINE - IT CAN ONLY BE CAUSED BY PREVIOUSLY HAVING HAD CHICKEN POX YOURSELF!!!

Kris

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #442 on: April 14, 2015, 05:26:30 PM »
What absolute rubbish!

Repeat after me SHINGLES IS NOT CAUSED BY CHICKENPOX VACCINE - IT CAN ONLY BE CAUSED BY PREVIOUSLY HAVING HAD CHICKEN POX YOURSELF!!!

The reason you may find shingles cases increasing is that people are AVOIDING the vaccine because they are stupid, and thus MORE people are getting chicken pox - and thus later getting shingles. OR it might just be that the population is increasing. And I would like to see a reference to something that has the actual figures rather than hearsay.

Not true.  It is possible to get shingles caused by the chicken pox vaccine. The vaccine strain can reawaken later in life and cause shingles. (And btw, I am pro-vaccine, and pro-chicken pox vaccine, though it didn't exist when I was a kid).

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/varicella/

Look under "Other Safety Information."
Not true - look for previous comments by a person who actually works in the chickenpox vaccine area further up this thread who says SHINGLES IS NOT CAUSED BY CHICKENPOX VACCINE - IT CAN ONLY BE CAUSED BY PREVIOUSLY HAVING HAD CHICKEN POX YOURSELF!!!

First, please calm down.

Second, I prefer to believe the Center for Disease Control and Prevention's website's information over "some anonymous person who says he/she works in the chicken pox vaccine area."  I am in no way anti-vaccine, but I don't think there's anything to be gained by not recognizing that some sources are more reputable than others.  (No offense to the anonymous person above, but individuals can make mistakes.) 

Did you read the section on the CDC website I posted? 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 05:38:35 PM by Kris »

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #443 on: April 14, 2015, 06:28:58 PM »
What absolute rubbish!

Repeat after me SHINGLES IS NOT CAUSED BY CHICKENPOX VACCINE - IT CAN ONLY BE CAUSED BY PREVIOUSLY HAVING HAD CHICKEN POX YOURSELF!!!

The reason you may find shingles cases increasing is that people are AVOIDING the vaccine because they are stupid, and thus MORE people are getting chicken pox - and thus later getting shingles. OR it might just be that the population is increasing. And I would like to see a reference to something that has the actual figures rather than hearsay.

Not true.  It is possible to get shingles caused by the chicken pox vaccine. The vaccine strain can reawaken later in life and cause shingles. (And btw, I am pro-vaccine, and pro-chicken pox vaccine, though it didn't exist when I was a kid).

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/varicella/

Look under "Other Safety Information."
Not true - look for previous comments by a person who actually works in the chickenpox vaccine area further up this thread who says SHINGLES IS NOT CAUSED BY CHICKENPOX VACCINE - IT CAN ONLY BE CAUSED BY PREVIOUSLY HAVING HAD CHICKEN POX YOURSELF!!!
I am the person you referenced.  You can, later in life, get shingles after having the chicken pox vaccine, once the virus travels up the DRG neuron, is silenced and then it reactivated.  So yes, in Europe, where the rate of the vaccine was over 90% they found an increase in shingles hospitalization/harm enough for MD involvement and a decrease in hospitalization/harm enough to need MD involvement in chicken pox.
As I previously stated, you can't get shingles from the chicken pox vaccine immediately (which is what was being argued) because shingles is by definition the REACTIVATION of VZV within the neurons (DRG or less commonly trigeminal).   Given that the vaccine is a live virus, it can get to your neuron system and become latent.  These are two different cases.
There are other reasons proposed for the increase, including that it appears that re-exposure to chicken pox to an adult can decrease the likelihood of shingles (the reason for the shingles vaccine), which when you vaccinate children against chicken pox you remove this re-exposure.   

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #444 on: April 14, 2015, 06:31:11 PM »
What absolute rubbish!

Repeat after me SHINGLES IS NOT CAUSED BY CHICKENPOX VACCINE - IT CAN ONLY BE CAUSED BY PREVIOUSLY HAVING HAD CHICKEN POX YOURSELF!!!

The reason you may find shingles cases increasing is that people are AVOIDING the vaccine because they are stupid, and thus MORE people are getting chicken pox - and thus later getting shingles. OR it might just be that the population is increasing. And I would like to see a reference to something that has the actual figures rather than hearsay.

Not true.  It is possible to get shingles caused by the chicken pox vaccine. The vaccine strain can reawaken later in life and cause shingles. (And btw, I am pro-vaccine, and pro-chicken pox vaccine, though it didn't exist when I was a kid).

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/varicella/

Look under "Other Safety Information."
Not true - look for previous comments by a person who actually works in the chickenpox vaccine area further up this thread who says SHINGLES IS NOT CAUSED BY CHICKENPOX VACCINE - IT CAN ONLY BE CAUSED BY PREVIOUSLY HAVING HAD CHICKEN POX YOURSELF!!!

First, please calm down.

Second, I prefer to believe the Center for Disease Control and Prevention's website's information over "some anonymous person who says he/she works in the chicken pox vaccine area."  I am in no way anti-vaccine, but I don't think there's anything to be gained by not recognizing that some sources are more reputable than others.  (No offense to the anonymous person above, but individuals can make mistakes.) 

Did you read the section on the CDC website I posted?
No offense taken.  :)  It was a misunderstand of what I posted so I am glad for the opportunity to be more clear. 

Kris

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #445 on: April 14, 2015, 07:04:06 PM »
What absolute rubbish!

Repeat after me SHINGLES IS NOT CAUSED BY CHICKENPOX VACCINE - IT CAN ONLY BE CAUSED BY PREVIOUSLY HAVING HAD CHICKEN POX YOURSELF!!!

The reason you may find shingles cases increasing is that people are AVOIDING the vaccine because they are stupid, and thus MORE people are getting chicken pox - and thus later getting shingles. OR it might just be that the population is increasing. And I would like to see a reference to something that has the actual figures rather than hearsay.

Not true.  It is possible to get shingles caused by the chicken pox vaccine. The vaccine strain can reawaken later in life and cause shingles. (And btw, I am pro-vaccine, and pro-chicken pox vaccine, though it didn't exist when I was a kid).

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/varicella/

Look under "Other Safety Information."
Not true - look for previous comments by a person who actually works in the chickenpox vaccine area further up this thread who says SHINGLES IS NOT CAUSED BY CHICKENPOX VACCINE - IT CAN ONLY BE CAUSED BY PREVIOUSLY HAVING HAD CHICKEN POX YOURSELF!!!

First, please calm down.

Second, I prefer to believe the Center for Disease Control and Prevention's website's information over "some anonymous person who says he/she works in the chicken pox vaccine area."  I am in no way anti-vaccine, but I don't think there's anything to be gained by not recognizing that some sources are more reputable than others.  (No offense to the anonymous person above, but individuals can make mistakes.) 

Did you read the section on the CDC website I posted?
No offense taken.  :)  It was a misunderstand of what I posted so I am glad for the opportunity to be more clear.

Thanks for the clarification, Gin.  So, it appears that you and the CDC are in agreement!  ;)

enigmaT120

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #446 on: April 17, 2015, 02:37:51 PM »
This is from the CDC page linked to above:

"Other safety information
•Chickenpox vaccines contain weakened live VZV, which may cause latent (dormant) infection. The vaccine-strain VZV can reactivate later in life and cause shingles. However, the risk of getting shingles from vaccine-strain VZV after chickenpox vaccination is much lower than getting shingles after natural infection with wild-type VZV. For more information about how natural infection with wild-type VZV causes shingles, see Shingles Overview. Lab testing is needed to determine if a person got shingles from vaccine-strain VZV or from wild-type VZV. "

I got chicken pox in my early 20s and it sucked (no vaccine back then, as far as I know).  So when my doctor says it's time for the shingles vaccine I'm all for it.  How old do you have to be?


Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #447 on: April 17, 2015, 07:03:15 PM »
This is from the CDC page linked to above:

"Other safety information
•Chickenpox vaccines contain weakened live VZV, which may cause latent (dormant) infection. The vaccine-strain VZV can reactivate later in life and cause shingles. However, the risk of getting shingles from vaccine-strain VZV after chickenpox vaccination is much lower than getting shingles after natural infection with wild-type VZV. For more information about how natural infection with wild-type VZV causes shingles, see Shingles Overview. Lab testing is needed to determine if a person got shingles from vaccine-strain VZV or from wild-type VZV. "

I got chicken pox in my early 20s and it sucked (no vaccine back then, as far as I know).  So when my doctor says it's time for the shingles vaccine I'm all for it.  How old do you have to be?
Fifty, because they have only tested it for ten years.  However, in one study, subjects eating well and exercise had the same rates on shingles activation as those with the vaccine.  In addition the real harm from shingles comes from PHN (postherpatic neuralgia) which is nerve damage from the virus reactivation.  The vaccines works with your immune system which gets activated AFTER the reactivation in nervous system.  There have been cases of people getting the pain prior to the rash which means the effectiveness of the vaccine of the pain is not known (they only based efficiency of the vaccine on decrease of the rash).  That said, the rate of PNH is 18% of adults over 60 who have gotten shingles and 1/3 of adults over 79 who have, so you could die early.  ;)

purple monkey

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #448 on: April 18, 2015, 10:12:13 PM »
Some unknown things from a healthcare person:

Most reactions from vaccines are NEVER documented because it takes too much time to do.
Now the websites are easier, but still time.
Years ago, unless someone had a seizure, no one would stay on the phone for almost an hour to report.
Given thousands of vaccines, by the way.

Neuropathy is hell!
I have it.

Thought I might stir up some dust.

There are several vaccines that are given to babies that could wait or be spaced.

The pharma industry is bigger than all other lobbies combined.

Isn't that Crazy?

Flyingkea

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #449 on: April 18, 2015, 11:06:18 PM »
The funny thing is, the anti-vaxers are in a way, helping the vaccine companies. For example if we vaccinated everyone today against polio, it would be eradicated. (Nearly was too). Because of the anti vaccine movement in nigeria (i think it was nigeria) polio was not eradicated meaning we still need to vaccinate for it, therefore continuing to supply customers for the vax companies. We don't vaccinate for smallpox because that vaccination effort worked.
And that way, even if the vaccines did have side effects, it wouldn't matter, because we wouldn't need to use them again.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!